I'm done.

A place for you to announce your upcoming wedding.

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Re: I'm done.

Postby LatterDay Marriage » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:24 am

Bryan_LDS_husband wrote:
LatterDay Marriage wrote:I think it would be a terrible thing to go through life never having a sure and solid conviction about anything and always believing that nothing is sure and reliable and unchanging. How can you have the kind of faith needed for salvation if you feel that God is changeable, or that we can never really know for sure if something really is what God commands or says or wants or if his Prophet can be trusted or not.


This is a bit of an aside from the topic of this thread (sorry), but I wanted to comment on this. What I read into this comment, and feel free to correct me, is this: Anytime a prophet speaks from the pulpit or publishes his words via the church, you assume it as if God himself were speaking. Or at least, this is how we aught to consider it, true or not. End of story. The Prophet has spoken. No need to think about it any more. The issue is settled. God's will has been made known.

That to me feels like blind obedience.


That's a bit exaggerated. I'm not advocating blind obedience, I'm advocating loyal obedience based on having a knowledge from personal revelation that the President of the Church really is a true prophet of God. When you know that, then yes there is an obligation to follow the direction he gives to the church as the Prophet and to do otherwise is to knowingly rebel against a prophet of God. If you don't understand something there is nothing wrong with seeking for understanding, but getting that understanding often requires that we are obeying out of faith as we seek. Likewise for those seeking to know if the President really is a true prophet.
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Re: I'm done.

Postby BBoy » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:26 am

LatterDay Marriage wrote:
That's a bit exaggerated. I'm not advocating blind obedience, I'm advocating loyal obedience based on having a knowledge from personal revelation that the President of the Church really is a true prophet of God. When you know that, then yes there is an obligation to follow the direction he gives to the church as the Prophet and to do otherwise is to knowingly rebel against a prophet of God. If you don't understand something there is nothing wrong with seeking for understanding, but getting that understanding often requires that we are obeying out of faith as we seek. Likewise for those seeking to know if the President really is a true prophet.


Nice short post, LDM! :D
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Re: I'm done.

Postby Jgtrs » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:43 pm

In my experience, pride often keeps us from learning and growth. Pride in our beliefs, in our ability to discern, and in our perception of understanding can be as cloudy to growth as the blinders we place on ourselves when we don't want to address or deal with the incongruity between our beliefs and behaviors, which is usually the only part of the pride picture that gets addressed from the pulpit. I have found that truly happy people are typically humble people, especially those who realize that God is among us, or rather, that God works his miracles through the interactions of us mortals, or that there is a connection among and between us tied to something greater than ourselves, whether this greater thing is called God or something else.

It's interesting to me that LDM makes so many people so irritated. I completely understand it, but telling him it's in the message or tone probably isn't helpful. Firstly, LDM might consider that when the majority has some problem with your behavior, that's a very strong clue that your behavior is socially annoying. That does not necessarily mean that all your ideas are wrong, just that something in your social behavior annoys a lot of people. However, LDM is obviously a very principled man, so he likely cares more about defending his principles than social acceptance and the love of others. He does not appear to be driven to please others (not including family or those very close to him), other than through his service to God.

It's also pretty clear to me that LDM has thick skin and doesn't seem personally insulted when he gets attacked, or if he is emotionally hurt it doesn't really come out in his writing. This makes sense because emotions aren't driving his behavior. Rather, logic and a desire to obey God seem foremost in his rationale. If he were more driven by emotions, he would probably be better able to sense how he annoys so many people. But, I think it is more important for LDM to be right, or to assert what he strongly feels is the right opinion, rather than to assuage any egos or emotions. I don't think he intentionally wants to make anyone feel bad, other than those who are in need of repentance.

Most of us can see inconsistencies in LDM's belief paradigm, but in his opinion he is very consistent, and will defend his paradigm point by point with what appears to him as strong logic. We all tend to miss our inconsistencies and "blind spots" too. I think difficulties then arise in these areas where LDM sees no "wiggle room" and nearly everyone else does. That is where LDM seems to refuse to acknowledge there may be wiggle room and where nearly everyone else refuses to give up on trying to make him believe there is.

We probably all have areas where we WILL NOT BUDGE or wiggle. I believe there are some behaviors that we would all agree are just inherently wrong and evil, and we could find supportive evidence for our beliefs; then there are probably other behaviors that most would say are wrong, but some say are okay, until you move on this continuum until you find things that nearly everyone accepts. It is unlikely anyone could make us change our belief about things on the ends of OUR continuum, even with evidence that supports another opinion. And, we probably wouldn't worry about who we upset in our efforts to promote or protect our belief. We would likely feel justified and maybe even uplifted by our staunch and powerful voice. We would probably refuse to even seriously consider or ponder a different opinion because we already have a intensely strong belief that this is a no wiggle room area.

I mention this to help us understand that maybe LDM isn't all that different from the rest of us, just that his wiggle room lines are in a different place. For you math geeks, his standard error of measurement is narrower. And yes, like all of us, he has his outliers that he tries to use logic to explain, but might not make sense based on the other data.

Additionally, maybe we can use this example and experience to help ourselves become more open to other ideas or belief systems. I'm not advocating we become accepting of behaviors or practices that are harmful, degrading, or hurtful to other people, just that we consider being more open to learning from other people, and more open to the whisper of God, which, I believe, often comes through our fellow humans.
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Re: I'm done.

Postby BBoy » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:28 am

Excellent post, Jgtrs! I believe that you have summed it up nicely. Do we have a volunteer for a closing prayer?
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Re: I'm done.

Postby JustGettingBy » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:36 am

I think if we were to have a system that rated "value per word" then Jgtrs would be the clear winner on this site. This post is spot on. I think most will agree that I have tried to have LDM change not his core message, but his tactics. I also think many will also agree I have tried to tell him in a constructive way where I see he has a blind spot. We all do. Jgtrs sure put it susinctly.
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Re: I'm done.

Postby LatterDay Marriage » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:26 pm

I would say that in some cases a person can be suborn and dig in their heels out of pride and refuse to change just because they think it will 'make them look bad' to admit being wrong on something, but there are also times when a person has to stand on the ground they know is right even when the majority disagree. In that case they are not proud but valiant. Sometimes pride is thinking you are the teacher when you should be thinking of yourself as the student. It is also not proud to honestly consider what another says then reject it because it honestly fails to convince you.

In my case, when the majority object I do consider that there may be some problem with my behavior (same if even only one person objects) but I don't take it as proof that there is some problem with my behavior. That's why I ask for examples and clarification. If what is being objected to is not something I consider reasonable to object to then I'm not going to feel a need to change even when it is the majority that object. I wouldn't say I don't care about pleasing others, but there are limits on what I'll do for that.

I think the difference in 'wiggle room lines' has a lot to do with using a different standard to determine if something is authoritative or not. I obviously see what SWK in GC as having a lot of authority due to the content and context and also given how often he is quoted in official publications that discuss that topic. Others here seem to look at it as being much less authoritative because of how long ago it was said or other factors that I don't see as relevant.
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Re: I'm done.

Postby HighDriveMormon » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:59 pm

I think one of the problems, LDM, is how much time you spend on here on every thread and on every poster. This site has become your site. You control it. You spend hours each day researching subjects, responding to every post and manipulating just about every thread. Sites like this take on the identity of those who spend the most time on it and most of don't like how you have changed the site. You are just kind of annoying, prideful, self-centered and obnoxious to most of us. It also doesn't help your credibility that knowing that you are way out of shape/overweight and that you spend all day on your computer on a LDS sexuality forum.

If this was my site, I would ban you or greatly limit your participation, as i feel your current participation is damaging this site.
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Re: I'm done.

Postby JustGettingBy » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:10 pm

LDM, I do know some are name calling and that should be ignored. Many of us are not saying WHAT you are saying is your point of view, it is more the HOW you say it.

You asked for examples. It would take hours to do a thorough count of how many times you respond with long posts to every single point over and over again. That is a huge part of it from my point of view. I think many times a response of "as I said, I don't see it that way" or even nothing at all.

For an example, I took the to 7 top posters on this site. Here are the average per year for those top posters (starting from highest total posts).

KKSunflower 342
LDM 1703
Jgtrs 245
CmFray 484
Maribron 472
Mrs J 902
JustGettingBy 222

Looks clear to me. In one year alone you have posted double above anybody else.
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Re: I'm done.

Postby LatterDay Marriage » Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:07 pm

JustGettingBy wrote:LDM, I do know some are name calling and that should be ignored. Many of us are not saying WHAT you are saying is your point of view, it is more the HOW you say it.

You asked for examples. It would take hours to do a thorough count of how many times you respond with long posts to every single point over and over again. That is a huge part of it from my point of view. I think many times a response of "as I said, I don't see it that way" or even nothing at all.

For an example, I took the to 7 top posters on this site. Here are the average per year for those top posters (starting from highest total posts).

KKSunflower 342
LDM 1703
Jgtrs 245
CmFray 484
Maribron 472
Mrs J 902
JustGettingBy 222

Looks clear to me. In one year alone you have posted double above anybody else.


So if I just said the exact same thing but just put it all at the bottom rather than interspersed among the post I'm replying to people would feel differently about that, or am I taking that wrong?

I would say that the number of posts I make is a reflection of the number of posts other people make replying to me. I make one post, 3 people each reply , so I wind up posting 3 more times. Contrary to HDM assumptions I don't spend a lot of time here, in most cases the topic is one I looked into some time ago and at worst have to do a quick search to get the source reference. I was out of town all day Saturday, we took a bunch of kids to a big Super Saturday and spend the day together there and never touched a computer. We did a 2K hike along a canyon and it was amazing. Monday I spent most of the in the ER with my daughter (not serious), Sunday was church, my after church church stuff (that went on till about 3pm) and choir practice at 6:30. I've got a busy life with a lot going on.
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Re: I'm done.

Postby BBoy » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:45 pm

LatterDay Marriage wrote: Sunday was church, my after church church stuff (that went on till about 3pm) and choir practice at 6:30. I've got a busy life with a lot going on.


Okay, ANYONE who sings in their ward choir deserves TONS of slack! I am NOT kidding. (I am the choir pianist in our ward and my DW is the choir director.) If you sing in your ward choir, you are 87.5% of the way to the Celestial Kingdom. If you CAN sing and don't sing in your ward choir, you are well on your way to some lesser realm.
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