I'm done.

A place for you to announce your upcoming wedding.

Moderators: zookie, Mrs J

Re: I'm done.

Postby LatterDay Marriage » Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:50 pm

cmfray wrote:If you will go back and look at the rules I set up - you will find some things that upset people and that offends them! This is a forum for the purpose of discussing sexual matters from LDS members viewpoints! And everyone has different viewpoints and opinions to share ! This is not a debate team - to prove things or a place where people come to find a definitive stance on church doctrine. Nor is it a class with a teacher and students. That is not to say that we don't learn on this forum - cause we do learn - we learn from each other through sharing and discussing the various topics - in a respectful manner - all on the same playing field (life) - with no one above another (in other words, we all struggle with something).


If you want viewpoints shared, you are going to get conflicting points of view and to rule out any kind of debate on those disagreements, or say that those discussing a topic can't express what they think of the opposing view and why they think that is hugely repressive. Requiring the whole board to be like that would be pretty unworkable, it fights against the natural ebb and flow of a conversation. I'm pretty sure that before I came along people at time said that some other poster was wrong about something, and how can you discuss something from an LDS viewpoint without having discussion on just what the church's position is on something?

As I see it, all of us at one time will be a student and at times a teacher. Nobody is forced to debate a point, and if somebody is going to express an opinion I don't think they should be sheltered from having it examined and commented on. I don't think it is wrong to expect them to be able to able to explain their reasons, take reasonable criticism of their ideas like a mature adult, and and be willing to give honest consideration to what others say. Name calling, mocking, insults, flaming, and trolling for flames are immature and should not be tollerated, but if somebody can't take having somebody else say their idea is wrong without taking it as a personal insult then they are not going to have fun on the Internet on any board.

When any kind of negative judgmental statements are made (no matter what words are used) - immediately a negative environment is created/ Most people generally tend to avoid negative environments because they are uncomfortable and yucky feeling. Stating that someone's argument is invalid puts the person on the defensive and makes them feel like their words are being attacked - like their words are being dismissed.


I would say that it is their own choice to react that way, and they need to take responsibility for that reaction, not retaliate with hostility because somebody dares to disagree with them. If some view is contrary to facts or based on flawed logic or is provably false then it should be judged negatively. If somebody is so afraid of offending others that they won't say anything to disabuse them of a false notion then they lack courage.

What I find most offensive about negative judgmental words like invalid, wrong, etc. is they portray the person who uses them as one who thinks they have the answers to everything, when someone uses those words, they are basically saying they are the one who thinks logical and their reasoning is valid - while the person the comment is directed at is not logical and their reasoning is invalid.


Again that is a choice to take it that way. If somebody feels they are better informed about a particular topic than somebody else that doesn't mean they think themselves to be better informed than everybody else on everything. That is a huge over reaction. And if somebody is able to point out a logical flaw in an argument that likewise doesn't mean that they consider themselves superior in all such things.

I first went on the Internet 26 years ago, before there was even such a thing as the world wide web even. I've had all kinds of conversations online, political, religious, discussions with mormons, anti-mormons, liberals, conservative, Trekkies, Whovians, etc. In all that time I have never run into even one person that takes being disagreed with so personally as some people here or who overreact in this way. If somebody went through all the posts that happened before I came along, would there not be people there saying somebody was wrong about something, that some view or claim was invalid, incorrect, wrong? People have said those things about what I've posted so it stands to reason they may have said it before me too.

Other judgment calls - like stating something is a fact or something is not a fact causes problems with other posters also. While it may be a fact that a prophet said something somewhere - defining what the prophet meant is always an interpretation. What makes one's interpretation more valid than someone else's??


How consistent it is with scripture, with other statements by that or other prophets, by the content and context of the actual quote. You can't say that it's valid to take any statement and have it mean anything a person wants. Words have meanings and while in some cases there is room for interpretation it is a limited amount of room. In some cases there really is not room for legitimate interpretation. If somebody calls a thing a fact and somebody else doesn't accept that statement as accurate whey do they have have to take offense over it or react in a negative way? Again, that kind of reaction is a choice, and I think people that choose that are the ones to be accountable for the choice.

To address the other part of your question - "Do you think there is ever such a thing as an opinion that really is invalid? If so, by what standard to you separate a valid from an invalid opinion?" As far as I am concerned - because of the purpose of this forum - we should assume everyone's opinion is valid - and that there are no invalid opinions?


It's a nice platitude, but it isn't at all practical. You run into the conundrum that you must then accept my opinion that there are invalid opinions as being valid. And my opinion that when people get their shorts in a knot when their opinions are scrutinized it is their own choice. And my opinion that they should develop a thicker skin and react in a more mature way. You can't go by that and at the same time try and tell me I'm wrong for calling something invalid and try to talk me out of doing it.

There might be opinions we don't agree with - or ones that don't even make sense to us - but to state that someone's opinions on open discussion forums like this are invalid or wrong - closes off discussions with a negative dismissal and discourages further discussion.


Somebody could take it that way if they wanted, or they could take it as an opportunity to explain the validity of their view for the benefit of those who don't understand, or an opportunity to test the validity of their view and see how it holds up under scrutiny. As long as there isn't name calling etc. why should it be a problem?

It is not helpful and does not contribute to the purpose of the forum. So in my opinion these types of words should not be used here. Instead of using negative judgment statements about others opinions or ideals - I think it is better to stick with stating your own ideals and opinions and beliefs.


Some things really are facts, some things really are false, some things really are invalid, some things really are true. I really don't think that trying to protect the fragile egos that can't bear being disagreed with or the offended feelings of people who choose to be offended when it is not justified creates a healthy climate for open discussion and learning.

and making others feel defensive and demeaned.


I don't MAKE anybody feel anything, I present an evaluation of claims and facts to support what I say. Then they choose how they will feel about it. I'm not calling name, I'm not flaming people, etc. etc.
User avatar
LatterDay Marriage
 
Posts: 2005
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:26 pm
Location: Canada

Re: I'm done.

Postby LatterDay Marriage » Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:58 pm

KSSunflower wrote:I agree stirring up contention is counterproductive to open discussion. I think it takes two to argue. The contention is not one-sided. Humility would definitely help everyone involved.

Compelling does no good, but persuasion and correction do. I don't see LDM (or anybody else's posts) as compelling others. He is persistent but not forceful. We still have our agency and nothing LDM has said would take that away. Others have had just as difficult time accepting his views, as he theirs.

I am not sure disagreeing with somebody's opinion is the same as being intolerant. If so, there isn't a tolerant person on this forum. We all have disagreements. We all try to convince others of our view or point out holes in theirs. I would say that more has been done to try to convince LDM of his flaws, not only in his opinion but his personality. We see him post more because he has multiple people who disagree with him.

By their fruits you shall know them. And more than one on this forum have brought bad fruit to these discussions. Others need to step up and take responsibility for their own negative contributions.

Is it also weakness and uncertainty to insist one diminish their convictions so others might feel better?

I have been hurt more by the negative things repeatedly said about the church than LDM's firm view on masturbation. So much discussion on sexuality here is centered on the shortcomings of the church and its leaders. How is that helpful to building people up in the gospel? Are we saying one can say the church and prophets were wrong, but we can't suggest somebody on the forum is wrong?


Well said, thank you.
User avatar
LatterDay Marriage
 
Posts: 2005
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:26 pm
Location: Canada

Re: I'm done.

Postby LatterDay Marriage » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:05 pm

Bryan_LDS_husband wrote:LDM,

Well, I tried. I was attempting to point out why you are offending people. Silly me, I actually thought you might say something like, "Oh! So THAT'S why people are taking offense to my comments instead of understand the points I'm trying to make!" But I guess instead of wanting to learn how you might improve your communication skills, you are content in continuing to alienate.

Good luck with that.

Bryan


Actually, it was a disappointing confirmation that what I guessed to be the issue was correct. Nice to have it out in the open though.

I understand why you are upset. I just reject the notion those kind of reaction to me saying some opinion is invalid are reasonable or mature. I don't know if it comes from pride, a fragile ego, immaturity, being thin skinned, or just a habit or cultural influence or what but if you can't take somebody offering reasonable criticism devoid of name calling or personal attacks then I would say you are the one that needs to change.

Would you call that a valid opinion?
User avatar
LatterDay Marriage
 
Posts: 2005
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:26 pm
Location: Canada

Re: I'm done.

Postby LatterDay Marriage » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:25 pm

JustGettingBy wrote:I think you are getting some fairly clear feedback that the way you feel "others should be willing to have their views challenged". Well, your way of interacting is clearly being challenged as not productive.


I find it interesting that even though my views are being challenged by others, even to the point of actual rudeness and name calling, I haven't gone off all offended and said certain people should probably be kicked off the site etc. I've lived by the standard that I'm promoting pretty well. On the other had the people who are all offended are not doing a great job living by the standard they want me to live by, they say I'm wrong to say somebody is wrong.
User avatar
LatterDay Marriage
 
Posts: 2005
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:26 pm
Location: Canada

Re: I'm done.

Postby LatterDay Marriage » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:38 pm

Bryan_LDS_husband wrote:Could not have said it better myself. My recap of what's going on here:

US: LDM, your methods are offensive and abrasive.
LDM: I don't undertand why you think that. All I'm doing it quoting our leaders. Please help me understand.
US: Ok, we will try to help you understand. Here's why: (insert explanations from above -- omitted here to save space)
LDM: No, that can't be it. You are wrong.


Are you so hung up on trying to get me to understand you that you are not trying to understand me?

Here is a much better recap:

LDM: Please show me where I have posted something that is offensive.

Others: You said my opinion was invalid, I take that as rude and insulting.

LDM: It's your choice to take it that way. I didn't call names or cast insults, I stated an evaluation of an opinion and gave my reasons for disagreeing. That is part of normal mature exchange between adults. You can do the same thing and express your view of my opinions and what your reasons for disagreeing are.

Others: You are wrong to say that somebody is wrong, it is invalid to say it's ok to call a view invalid. When you say my view is invalid you make me feel like you think you know everything about everything and are intellectually superior to all of us.

LDM: But you are calling me wrong and saying my view is invalid, you can't practice what you preach, it's unreasonable. You feel that way because you choose to feel that way and take it that way. You can make other, better choices.
User avatar
LatterDay Marriage
 
Posts: 2005
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:26 pm
Location: Canada

Re: I'm done.

Postby bosshog » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:25 pm

LatterDay Marriage wrote:Are you so hung up on trying to get me to understand you that you are not trying to understand me?


<style>
.bosshog_reply{
speaking-tone:calmly_and_peacefully;
}
.ie .bosshog_reply {
speaking-tone:all_bets_are_off;
}
</style>

That's it right there LDM. That is the reason the vast majority can't stand you on this forum. Almost non of us are offended by what you say. It's what you DO. There is nothing you have said that offends me. Nothing you have said makes me question, makes me feel bad, makes me wonder. I'm not that kind of person. I listen I take what I want from it and I move on. What everyone is upset about is your insatiable desire to argue and contend with everyone about everything. So you can get off of your position of piety and claims that it is your righteousness that upsets people. It has nothing to do with it.

You got on this thread and asked US what drives everyone nuts. So we told you. Everyone I feel has been very civil in their response. They attempted to answer your question. Instead of listening and learning, which is the correct way to receive proper feedback. You have argued with every single person. Than you summed all of it right here right now. Again you asked US, we answered. Now you are turning it around and and arguing that we are trying to get you to understand. That is exactly what you asked us to do. To help you understand. I NEVER asked us to understand you, but there you are trying to put yourself as the victim. We did as you asked and you still had to argue and defend. It's my belief that you are a very insecure person. You claim that others on here are not teachable, and they are prideful, But have you not expressed all of these in yourself. Are you not the one being prideful when you ask for feedback and than you can't take it.

I made the decision to leave not because of what you say, it is what you do. You bring the spirit of contention to every thread you participate in. How am I supposed to feel the spirit and discern between right and wrong when all there is, is contention. Contention you bring. Don't believe it. Look at the way the rest of us interact with each other. Everyone of us disagrees with some point or another of everyone else. But we don't get contentious about it. We talk in a civil manor. We don't shoot down the opposing party we state that there could be a different view.

That's what is great about this gospel. It is all open to personal interpretation. Everyone of us are commanded to search it out on our own. We are not to be slothful servants and to be told all the ways to live.

This is the way I look at the gospel. Bosshog style. There is the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ. They are not the same. One is the eternal truths, the plan of salvation. The other is the tool, and earthly method for living it. The second changes. It is influenced by personal opinions, culture and experiences. It is ran by man who is flawed. Mistakes happen. We do our best to listen to the spirit and live the gospel though it, but sometimes we fail. Even prophets fail, they are still men after all. When they do it doesn't shake my testimony. The church is just the administration. It is the program. To many times do we get lost in the program and forget the gospel. Missions and missionaries are the biggest offenders. My brand new still wet behind the ears bishop is stuck right now behind the program and has forgotten about the gospel and the true purpose. It happens to all of us.

I say this to make my point that when a prophet, apostle, mission president, stake president, bishop, eq pres, whoever. Says something I listen with my ears, I listen with my heart, I study it out and I make my decision. I am the one after all who gets judged for my actions. I wont walk blindly.

So I apologies for any negative feelings I may have caused anyone else on this forum. Sometimes I let the mortal human side take over and I say things I shouldn't. PEC yesterday was on of them.... still stings a bit.

I want this forum to be a place I can talk about sex. Where I can feel the spirit so I can discern what is right for me and my household, and where I can feel safe to express myself and not get criticized and called stupid for having an opinion. Where I can be safe from the worldly views of sex.

LDM you don't create that atmosphere, you work against it. I'm not yelling at you, I'm stating how I feel. I wasn't aware of the friend and foe tool. As of now LDM is in my foe list and it blocks all his posts. I'm hoping that with that I can skip passed it and not get caught up in the contention and read the good stuff.

LDM when I first got on this forum I was excited to read what you had to say. I enjoyed it, and I even spent time on your blog. It might just be me, but it has seemed that you have left the path of giving advice and allowing people to listen and make their own decisions to making it your job to argue with everyone. The result is that I no longer read anything you have to say, and many others are the same. I understand what you are doing, and your desire. IMHO you have gone about it the wrong way and have lost trust with so many on here. If you were in my stake as a missionary, or a person of authority I wouldn't hear a word you say. I would tune out and just wait for you to sit down. You have lost all our ability to touch and change my life. I'm just sharing my personal opinion with you. I'm not looking for a confrontation.
So unless you words are "I'm sorry" which you can PM me so as to not show weakness I'm not interested in what you have to say anymore.

I hope that this solution will work for me. I miss the forum. The topics and conversation, and the comrade.

PS hotmom didn't even know I left until someone PMed her. She is her own agent, just because I made the decision to not be on here didn't mean she couldn't be.
bosshog
 
Posts: 340
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:21 am

Re: I'm done.

Postby LatterDay Marriage » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:47 pm

Well, I don't expect a reply from bosshog but the rest of you are welcome to chime in...

bosshog wrote:
LatterDay Marriage wrote:Are you so hung up on trying to get me to understand you that you are not trying to understand me?


That's it right there LDM. That is the reason the vast majority can't stand you on this forum.


Not getting it. What exactly is wrong with that question? My very first post in that thread ended with:

I'm honestly asking for somebody to explain to me in a way I can understand what I have said that crosses the line to the extent that it would drive a way a reasonable mature adult, and provide examples if possible. I'm also honestly asking those offended parties to seriously consider that perhaps what upsets them is what they choose to read into my words and what conclusions they choose to jump to, not what I actually say. And also if perhaps their emotional reaction comes from a part of them that is afraid that I could be right and so are upset with me because of their own internal conflict.


I never intended this as a one way thing, and BLH's 'recap' left me feeling that my effort to come to a better understanding was not returned in kind. Admittedly, 'focused' would have been a better word choice than 'hung up' but that's a small thing.

What everyone is upset about is your insatiable desire to argue and contend with everyone about everything. So you can get off of your position of piety and claims that it is your righteousness that upsets people. It has nothing to do with it.


I've just gone over all my posts in this thread looking for where I was contentious or where I claimed to be any more righteous than anybody else. Couldn't find it, would love it if somebody could point it out to me (somebody who is not afraid to actually discuss it so intention and perception can be clarified).

You got on this thread and asked US what drives everyone nuts. So we told you.


Yes, and when I restated it did I get it wrong? If so what am I missing?

I think perhaps you jumped to the conclusion that if I understood what people found offensive that I would instantly feel compelled to act in the way they would want me to. That would depend on me agreeing with them that what I did was something a reasonable mature adult would rightfully take offense at. I'm not going to make myself a hostage to the emotional reactions of other people, I have to go by what I believe.

I have no intention of offending anybody, but I'm not in control of how people choose to react either, and all I'm seeing is people who find it offensive to have somebody express a disagreement with them confidently. Is there more to it that that? At this point I still see nothing wrong with what I've said or how I've said it. If somebody feels their ego is bruised or their pride is hurt I'm sorry they feel that way, but it is their choice to feel that way and I would say the solution to that the lies within them, not me.

They attempted to answer your question. Instead of listening and learning, which is the correct way to receive proper feedback. You have argued with every single person. Than you summed all of it right here right now. Again you asked US, we answered.


And I did listen. In my recap summed it up as:

You said my opinion was invalid, I take that as rude and insulting....You are wrong to say that somebody is wrong, it is invalid to say it's ok to call a view invalid. When you say my view is invalid you make me feel like you think you know everything about everything and are intellectually superior to all of us.

Is that wildly inaccurate?

Now you are turning it around and and arguing...We did as you asked and you still had to argue and defend.


NONE of what I'm saying is arguing. I'm trying to have a discussion, you know, back and forth, a verbal exchange. If you thought this was just going to be me taking marching orders with no questions or comment then I don't know where you got that idea. Don't project an argumentative tone into what I say.

It's my belief that you are a very insecure person.


Come talk to me about that after you have walked a mile in my shoes. I couldn't do this unless I was very secure in myself. There was a time way back in high school when I really was a very insecure person so I know the difference.

You claim that others on here are not teachable, and they are prideful, But have you not expressed all of these in yourself. Are you not the one being prideful when you ask for feedback and than you can't take it.


Actually I said I didn't know if the reason some people here take such a dislike to me saying some view of theirs is invalid was because of pride, frail ego, cultural, habit, or what. I can't look inside anybody and see why, but I know there are a number of possibilities. You each can look inside and ask yourself why you take it that way. I think I've taken the feedback, I had a few differnet theories on what the problem might be and now I can dismiss some of those based on what was said here. Just because I don't agree with the solutions proposed by others doesn't mean I've not been listening. Have you all given honest consideration to what I've said?

I want this forum to be a place I can talk about sex. Where I can feel the spirit so I can discern what is right for me and my household, and where I can feel safe to express myself and not get criticized and called stupid for having an opinion.


Be fair. I have never called you stupid.
User avatar
LatterDay Marriage
 
Posts: 2005
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:26 pm
Location: Canada

Re: I'm done.

Postby be64 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:13 am

Rather than make any new comments on this thread I will simply quote what I said on January 31, 2014.

"LDM, It's amazing how easily you justify what you like to do. I respect my wife enough that I would never use vulgar language in her presence.(I don't use it out of her presence either). I have no respect for anyone who uses the F word. The fact that you admit to using it then justify it as being okay causes me to no longer view anything you say as having any validity at all. I suppose you feel it's okay for teenagers to use the F word amongst themselves so long as they are only using it to describe a sex act act not as an explicitive. There is no appropriate way of using the F word to describe the sacred act of sexual intercourse. I'll appreciate it if you never post on any of my threads again."

Enough said
be64
 
Posts: 1898
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:02 am

Re: I'm done.

Postby Mrs J » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:25 am

Sigh.

I really do have better things to do than moderate all of this. I unlocked it because I thought JGB had one more thing he wanted to say.

Here's my advice as a moderator and as a people person.

I asked LDM to refrain from posting on any of the 'controversial' threads. He and I took that to mean the M threads, I think, though I didn't define it specifically. For a short time I asked him to keep his comments pithy. For that period of time, things DID calm down on the forum, people DID relax a bit and there wasn't any contention.

I strongly urge anyone who has issues with LDM's delivery of his opinion to add him to their FOE list, thus hiding his comments.

After prayerful consideration, I have decided NOT to ban him from the site. I realize that a few of you will be unhappy about it. Please feel free to PM me all the reasons why you're right and I'm wrong. I'm a grown-up; I can handle it.

I figure if people come on here and espouse teachings that are actually contrary to some core gospel beliefs and they don't get banned, then I better not ban LDM either. Doesn't mean I agree with either of those people on the spectrum. It means I'm 'moderating' the forum, and trying to create an atmosphere where discussion, true discussion, can exist. In that light, I think the biggest issue I have with LDM would be the last several posts on this specific thread. Long-winded diatribes, dissected quotes from others, point-by-point posts are a huge turn-off.

If you don't want your posts to get deleted, LatterDay Marriage, keep them short and to the point. I have very little patience at this time.

I enjoy discussing married sex. I don't enjoy coming on the forum and seeing that yet another argument has exploded. While I am making this concession of not banning LDM, I make no promises about not deleting posts that irritate me because of length or if I think they are going to turn into arguments.

I received no training for this job; I'm flying by the seat of my pants. I also get no financial reward for doing it. I'm going to make mistakes. If you all don't like my decisions, I apologize. You are more than welcome to petition to get this assignment and it won't hurt my feelings.

LDM, if you don't like the idea of me deleting posts I don't like from you, you are welcome to join a different forum where I am not moderating. This is the only forum I am a member of, so you will be free of my hovering finger in other places.

Good luck everyone. Now I have a life to go to.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for a good man to do nothing.
User avatar
Mrs J
 
Posts: 1916
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:50 am

Re: I'm done.

Postby LatterDay Marriage » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:03 am

Your board, your rules. I have no problem with that. All I hope for is that an objective standard is followed and fairly applied to everybody.

I would point out that my long posts were in reply to long posts. If there is some capacity here to set a maximum character length for a post that might be worth considering.
User avatar
LatterDay Marriage
 
Posts: 2005
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:26 pm
Location: Canada

PreviousNext

Return to Announcements

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest