I'm done.

A place for you to announce your upcoming wedding.

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Re: I'm done.

Postby Bryan_LDS_husband » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:31 pm

LatterDay Marriage wrote:Can't say I see that pattern in the scriptures. He sends his servants to teach and warn the people to the point that they want to kill them they get so sick of hearing them preach.


Yeah, but see.... you are not in a position of authority over us. You are not our bishop. You are not our home teacher. You are not our Elder's Quorum president. You are not our dad. You are just some guy on an online forum. Yet, your approach has been one of assumed stewardship... you seem to think it is your calling to set us all straight on this issue. You are trying to fulfill the role of God's prophet you just described above... you want to preach this issue until we either agree with your or want to kill you because we are so sick of hearing it.

And that just isn't your place in a setting like this.
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Re: I'm done.

Postby Bryan_LDS_husband » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:52 pm

LatterDay Marriage wrote:Work with me a bit on this....

If somebody says 'That view is invalid', what do you think they mean by that?

Do you think there is ever such a thing as an opinion that really is invalid?

If so, by what standard to you separate a valid from an invalid opinion?



I don't think any of us get to decide when someone's opinion is valid or invalid. Everyone has a right to their opinion. It's theirs. They came up with it on their own. To say, "your opinion is invalid" is just plain rude. And nobody likes rude. You would be MUCH better received if you said something like, "I fear your opinion may be based on faulty information, or on un-safe assumptions."

This is a personal attack: "Your opinion is invalid."

This is a statement of your own opinion, and is NOT a persona attack: "I fear your opinion may be based on faulty information, or on un-safe assumptions."

If the person with whom you are conversing feels attacked personally, the conversation may as well be over. Anything you say after that will NOT be well received. But if the person with whom you are conversing feels that you are both just sharing personal opinions, then the conversation will continue, and will be healthy.

~~~

But the thing is, if you *honestly* feel that someone's opinion is invalid, then you will only be able to fake being polite for so long. In my opinion, if you feel your are superior enough to someone else to decide that their opinion is invalid, then there are deeper things going on here than just learning the do's-and-dont's of how to carry on a polite conversation.
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Re: I'm done.

Postby cmfray » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:17 am

Good example Lovey!

LDM - I will take a stab at this! First of all, I commend you on the respectful discussion we had on the SWK thread. I appreciated the effort you made on that thread to stay within the bounds I set up, for not using any negative connotations about mine and others comments and for sticking to only expressing your own thoughts and reasoning. Clearly it didn't change my thoughts nor yours- but that was not my purpose - and I did not think it would! I was just trying to understand you better - and help you to understand me better - and also see if we could have one discussion without it getting negative and combative. I think we succeeded on both!

If you will go back and look at the rules I set up - you will find some things that upset people and that offends them! This is a forum for the purpose of discussing sexual matters from LDS members viewpoints! And everyone has different viewpoints and opinions to share ! This is not a debate team - to prove things or a place where people come to find a definitive stance on church doctrine. Nor is it a class with a teacher and students. That is not to say that we don't learn on this forum - cause we do learn - we learn from each other through sharing and discussing the various topics - in a respectful manner - all on the same playing field (life) - with no one above another (in other words, we all struggle with something).

You ask "'That view is invalid', what do you think they mean by that?" I think a person means that they have judged the view presented and found it lacking for whatever reason. When I see the word invalid - it simply tells me that the person using that word has made a negative judgment towards what was expressed and is now demeaning or dismissing the person's view as wrong or not pertinent. When I hear the word valid and invalid - I basically hear - that is invalid (that is wrong - not worth considering) - this is valid (this is right and should be considered). When any kind of negative judgmental statements are made (no matter what words are used) - immediately a negative environment is created/ Most people generally tend to avoid negative environments because they are uncomfortable and yucky feeling. Stating that someone's argument is invalid puts the person on the defensive and makes them feel like their words are being attacked - like their words are being dismissed. So why use those words - It really serves no purpose and it does not add anything helpful or positive to the discussion that follows - other than to state ones judgment call . What it does - is create negative feelings and makes people not want to read what follows. Instead of saying that what the person wrote is invalid and a more valid argument would be... - why not just say I am not sure I understand your reasoning - this is the way I see it - or ask for clarification if you don't follow the logic? If you don't agree - just state - I don't agree and here is why...! Keep all of your statements geared towards "I" or in other words yourself. I think, this is how I read that, what I see here, in my opinion, etc. What I find most offensive about negative judgmental words like invalid, wrong, etc. is they portray the person who uses them as one who thinks they have the answers to everything, when someone uses those words, they are basically saying they are the one who thinks logical and their reasoning is valid - while the person the comment is directed at is not logical and their reasoning is invalid. Very few people, if anyone, react positively to negative judgments words like these, so they are not very productive words - imo.

Other judgment calls - like stating something is a fact or something is not a fact causes problems with other posters also. While it may be a fact that a prophet said something somewhere - defining what the prophet meant is always an interpretation. What makes one's interpretation more valid than someone else's?? To address the other part of your question - "Do you think there is ever such a thing as an opinion that really is invalid? If so, by what standard to you separate a valid from an invalid opinion?" As far as I am concerned - because of the purpose of this forum - we should assume everyone's opinion is valid - and that there are no invalid opinions? There might be opinions we don't agree with - or ones that don't even make sense to us - but to state that someone's opinions on open discussion forums like this are invalid or wrong - closes off discussions with a negative dismissal and discourages further discussion. It is not helpful and does not contribute to the purpose of the forum. So in my opinion these types of words should not be used here. Instead of using negative judgment statements about others opinions or ideals - I think it is better to stick with stating your own ideals and opinions and beliefs.

Now to address this last question "If somebody is very, very wrong on something that is important, is it kinder to say 'I agree to disagree' or to try and convince them to change their mind about that thing?" Again - I go back to the purpose of this forum - it is a discussion forum - not a DEBATE - not a doctrine essentials class!!! We don't come here to be taught - we come here to have an open honest discussion - to express our feelings, our thoughts, and ideals - in a respectful environment - where we are not criticized or demeaned - to read what others think and feel - and sometimes to work things out in our own head. Often we learn from what others write - but it is human nature to not be open to being told we are wrong - even when we are! So I would definitely say - that on a forum - it is not only kinder - it is more respectful and helpful to just say I agree to disagree - after one has already stated their opinion - and the other person does not see things the same way. Once the info is shared - it is up to the other to accept it or not. Pounding it over and over - insisting they are wrong over and over - simply is not an effective way to convince anyone of anything - at least I know it never works on me and I have yet to see it work on anyone I know. It did not work well on my kids either - and trust me I tried several times!!! :shock:

I think it is fairly safe to say that very few people (if anyone) likes to be corrected for what they think, feel, or write! I don't think anyone comes here to this forum to be preached at - to be told they are wrong and their statements are invalid - or to be made to feel that what they say or think has no validity at all! And when those things have occur - this forum feels uncomfortable, negative, and contentious - people get offended, and they leave! The same goes for the name-callings and putting others down with insults, and other negative comments - all of which I know has happened in several posts directed at you, LDM! That also has no place here and creates an uncomfortable and contentious forum. I admire that you, for the most part ignored them and did not engage in doing the same back.

LDM, you have a perspective and viewpoint that is just as important as anyone else's here - and many times you made me think deeper and caused me to do more research, and question my own thinking about some topics. I also think you have some good insights and life experiences to share with others that is and can be extremely helpful. I think it is possible to share one's perspective and viewpoint, to state what one firmly believes, to help others - without using words with negative connotations, and making others feel defensive and demeaned.
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Re: I'm done.

Postby Lovey » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:27 pm

LDM, You have been given some excellent advise from comfray, Bryan & JGB. Be teachable. My guess is that what you learn here can also translate to your personal life. I know I wish my own mom would have been more generous with allowing greater flexibility of our opinions. My relationship is much better with her now. I suspect I would have been much closer to her when I lived at home had she valued and accepted my opinion without dismissing it so readily.
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Re: I'm done.

Postby LatterDay Marriage » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:40 pm

Lovey wrote:LDM, You have been given some excellent advise from comfray, Bryan & JGB. Be teachable. My guess is that what you learn here can also translate to your personal life. I know I wish my own mom would have been more generous with allowing greater flexibility of our opinions. My relationship is much better with her now. I suspect I would have been much closer to her when I lived at home had she valued and accepted my opinion without dismissing it so readily.


I've gotten some good insights into what (some?) of you have going on in your head, but there is a ways to go yet and it may bet worse before it gets better although I'll try to be gentle about it.
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Re: I'm done.

Postby LatterDay Marriage » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:11 pm

I think I understand what you are saying about your answers to my questions, but consider my own answers:

If somebody says 'That view is invalid', what do you think they mean by that?

When I say a view or opinion is invalid, it means that it either is contradictory to known facts, or based on flawed logic so the conclusion or idea being presented is not justified by the evidence or argument given for it. Technically, saying it is invalid doesn't prove that the conclusion is false (you can create invalid arguments for something that is true), but that is implied unless otherwise stated. If nobody can present a valid argument for something (meaning and argument that is consistent with the known facts and logically sound), it is perfectly reasonable to assume the conclusion is false. Likewise if a valid argument is made for something, that doesn't always prove that it is true, but it make it plausibly true at least.

Do you think there is ever such a thing as an opinion that really is invalid?

Obviously I do. If somebody wants to claim the opinion or argue that one race is superior to another, I would call that invalid. If they tried to argue that Mormons were not Christians, I would call that an invalid point of view as well.

If so, by what standard to you separate a valid from an invalid opinion?

By the standard I listed above: a valid opinion or view doesn't contradict known facts, and is logically sound. If it does not meet both those standards then it is invalid.
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Re: I'm done.

Postby LatterDay Marriage » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:43 pm

******************************
Warning !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
******************************
Given what has recently been posted here by some, I expect that my next couple replies may be considered offensive by some. I ask that you do not reply if you are angry. Wait, think about what I'm saying, don't try and read anything into my posts or jump to any conclusions that fall outside of what I actually say. I'll mostly be talking in the general case of things and not trying to imply anything any anybody.

After you have given it some thought and calmed down, then reply.
******************************
Bryan_LDS_husband wrote: You seem to have put yourself in the position of declaring what is right and what is wrong.


I understand that is how you perceive it, but I'm not sitting here pulling stuff out of my own head and calling it the position of the church. I'm passing on what the church itself has said. I'm not declaring what is right and wrong, I'm informing others of what the church has said is right and wrong. It isn't me that others are disagreeing with, it is the prophets and apostles and the church and God that they are disagreeing with. I don't just claim that, I show where they said it.

Now, you MAY be right. And the other person MAY be wrong. But, for the sake of a polite discussion, you will always come across as being a much nicer, more enjoyable person if you refrain from saying, "I am right, and you are wrong."


If somebody is wrong, how do you tell them what is right without also communicating that they are wrong? I get that nobody likes to be wrong, but is it really too much to expect other posters here to have the humility to be teachable and an ego strong enough to take being informed of where they are mistaken without losing their temper? I can understand somebody being upset if somebody posted something like 'You are a pin headed moron if you think that way' but that isn't what I'm doing. I'm not attacking anybody, I'm commenting on the ideas and arguments they are putting forth, same as others who reply saying I'm the one that is wrong.

There is also this to consider as well: "Right" and "Wrong" may not always be absolutes. You clearly view M as a black and white topic. In your mind, it's just simply wrong, and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. And you jump all over anyone who views the practice with any degree of grey and you tell them, "You are just plain wrong!"


Can you show me an example where you feel I "jumped all over somebody" like that just for disagreeing with me, because I don't think I've done that. I'd really like to see an example. When I say something is wrong, I give my reasons for saying that and I don't make it personal. I do expect that it wouldn't take me too long to find examples of others jumping all over me like that if I went looking for them.

The larger point is that ultimately, YOU do not get to decide what is right and what is wrong for everyone on this forum. You only get to decide what is right and wrong for you.


God gets to decide what is right and wrong for everybody in the world. He has called prophets and apostles to lead his church to teach us those things, and nobody gets to decide that they have an exemption. I am not deciding what is right and wrong, I have accepted what they are saying about it and passing on their words.
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Re: I'm done.

Postby LatterDay Marriage » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:51 pm

Bryan_LDS_husband wrote:Yeah, but see.... you are not in a position of authority over us. You are not our bishop. You are not our home teacher. You are not our Elder's Quorum president. You are not our dad. You are just some guy on an online forum.


I have assumed not such authority. I have only passed on what the prophets and apostles who ARE in authority over you have said on this. Doesn't my baptisimal covenant require me to stand as a witness at all times? Don't my temple covenants require me to devote myself to the building up the kingdom? Don't I have a moral obligation toward others to help them find, accept and live the gospel?
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Re: I'm done.

Postby blahblahblah » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:49 am

LatterDay Marriage wrote:I have assumed not such authority. I have only passed on what the prophets and apostles who ARE in authority over you have said on this. Doesn't my baptisimal covenant require me to stand as a witness at all times? Don't my temple covenants require me to devote myself to the building up the kingdom? Don't I have a moral obligation toward others to help them find, accept and live the gospel?


Actually, I don't think it does. Your covenants do not give you the right to repeatedly argue over and over the same points to the same people who didn't agree the last time. Standing as a witness has more to do with setting an example through actions and behavior rather than arguments. I don't think building up the kingdom includes stirring contention, driving others away from honest discussion, and I'm pretty sure humility is listed as an important characteristic of a servant of the Lord.

This is what the extremists of all religions forget: Religion teaches what each person can do to better their own lives and bring happiness out of individual agency. It does no good to try to compel others to believe the same. Remember, the whole Plan of Salvation is founded on the eternal principle of agency: that each must choose for themselves. You seem to be very uncomfortable with letting people do just that.

One more point (that I've made before): being intolerant of another's differing opinion, and constantly arguing to try to convince them to match your own is actually a sign of weakness and uncertainty, not strength and conviction. "By their fruits ye shall know them" and honestly, I can't really see much good fruit from your participation in certain discussions.

-BBB
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Re: I'm done.

Postby blahblahblah » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:01 am

Because it is relevant to this discussion here, here is what I said in the latest masturbation thread concerning whether a someone's words are his own opinion or the word of the God:

Even when the GA announces that "God says" or "not approved by the Lord" we still don't know. The ONLY way to know is through receiving confirmation by the Spirit. Sometimes that may come immediately, sometimes that may come after exercising faith and putting it to the test, and sometimes it never comes. And sometimes we are too proud, or not sufficiently humble in that area to receive the answer. But it is very much an individual responsibility to seek that answer.

To that I'll add one more thing: no amount of logic, linguistic criteria, rules, or examinations of context and wording can determine if something declared is actually of God or of man. It is the Spirit and the Spirit only that confirms truth to each individual.

-BBB
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