I'm done.

[bosshog]

Mrs J. I back your decision. Again my issue isn't with what he originally says. It's the methods that you and others have mentioned. Adding him to my Foe list (which I didn't what it does) has helped. I also think you have the right to delete any post, including mine, that is out of line or that will cause arguments, contention, or generally speaking a loss of the spirit. I apologize for the contention I have caused, and the headaches I have caused you, or anyone else.

Keep up the good work. Hopefully you can put your mommy voice away now I'll be in my room thinking about what I've done.

PS. I've actually toyed with the idea of setting up my own forum, but I'm not sure I want the headache of running that. But it is still floating around in my head.

[bosshog]

LDM in an attempt to stay civil and answer a couple of your questions I'll respond and I have one honest question for you.

When it comes to online interaction, when you type the words, and they are displayed on the page where we can read it, you have in fact said it. So when you say something like "I never said that, I said I wondered if....." makes no difference. You said it.

When you dissect someones comments. A comment they may have taken a lot of time to make, one where they put themselves out there, but may not have had all the information. After all they don't know what they don't know. When you dissect it, tell them it is invalid, wrong and so on. You are in fact calling them stupid. Just because you don't use the word doesn't mean you didn't say it. When I say DW's name before I make a comment. I'm calling her stupid. That's what she hears. "Hotmom, why would I have put it there" translation. "Hey stupid, why would I put it there, did you even think about it before that stupid comment came out of your mouth". The method you use is to talk down to us like an unloving father, telling us that we are just stupid kids.

You said that you have been listening. You have not shown that. Not once have I seen the words "I understand" in any form. Someone who is listening and taking feedback says "I understand what you are saying". Doesn't mean you have to agree, it is that you heard. So simply saying "I understand what you are saying, but..." instead of "Your comment is invalid because....."

So comments like I understand, I get where you are coming from, I'm sorry I must have explained it wrong, Just so I understand you said. These are phrases that give feedback and let people know you have some respect for them. These are phrases used in the U.S. maybe they don't use them in Canada. But I do know you learned them on your mission as part of the commitment pattern. After all the British can be hard to understand sometimes. Especially geordie, or cockney.

A proper response to all of this would be. "Okay I understand, I'll try and use more positive feedback in my responses". That is if you want people to respect you and your comments, and allow for further open discussion.

My question to you, so I can better understand you.
If you were to, or have, sit down and counsel with someone. Would you use the same methods with them in person as you do with us online? Is this your giving counsel method?

My personal method is to sit and listen. Listen to all they have to say. Every once in awhile ask a clarifying question so I can keep up. "That's what John said?". Repeat back to them what I hear and understand from their perspective. Start to ask leading questions that will allow them to start to see things outside their own box and allow them to make their own conclusions that both of us find acceptable.

LDM As a man in the technology field you are very much
0110001001101100011000010110001101101011001000000110111101110010001000000111011101101000011010010111010001100101

[BBoy]

We love you, Mrs J!!

[KSSunflower]

LDM As a man in the technology field you are very much
0110001001101100011000010110001101101011001000000110111101110010001000000111011101101000011010010111010001100101

What does it mean?!!! Somebody in the tech field fill me in.

[blahblahblah]

LDM As a man in the technology field you are very much
0110001001101100011000010110001101101011001000000110111101110010001000000111011101101000011010010111010001100101

What does it mean?!!! Somebody in the tech field fill me in.

black or white...

[Mrs J]

We love you, Mrs J!!

Awwww, thanks. That made my day.

[LatterDay Marriage]

LDM in an attempt to stay civil and answer a couple of your questions I'll respond and I have one honest question for you.

When it comes to online interaction, when you type the words, and they are displayed on the page where we can read it, you have in fact said it. So when you say something like "I never said that, I said I wondered if....." makes no difference. You said it.

When you dissect someones comments. A comment they may have taken a lot of time to make, one where they put themselves out there, but may not have had all the information. After all they don't know what they don't know. When you dissect it, tell them it is invalid, wrong and so on. You are in fact calling them stupid. Just because you don't use the word doesn't mean you didn't say it. When I say DW's name before I make a comment. I'm calling her stupid. That's what she hears. "Hotmom, why would I have put it there" translation. "Hey stupid, why would I put it there, did you even think about it before that stupid comment came out of your mouth". The method you use is to talk down to us like an unloving father, telling us that we are just stupid kids.

You said that you have been listening. You have not shown that. Not once have I seen the words "I understand" in any form. Someone who is listening and taking feedback says "I understand what you are saying". Doesn't mean you have to agree, it is that you heard. So simply saying "I understand what you are saying, but..." instead of "Your comment is invalid because....."

So comments like I understand, I get where you are coming from, I'm sorry I must have explained it wrong, Just so I understand you said. These are phrases that give feedback and let people know you have some respect for them. These are phrases used in the U.S. maybe they don't use them in Canada. But I do know you learned them on your mission as part of the commitment pattern. After all the British can be hard to understand sometimes. Especially geordie, or cockney.

A proper response to all of this would be. "Okay I understand, I'll try and use more positive feedback in my responses". That is if you want people to respect you and your comments, and allow for further open discussion.

My question to you, so I can better understand you.
If you were to, or have, sit down and counsel with someone. Would you use the same methods with them in person as you do with us online? Is this your giving counsel method?

My personal method is to sit and listen. Listen to all they have to say. Every once in awhile ask a clarifying question so I can keep up. "That's what John said?". Repeat back to them what I hear and understand from their perspective. Start to ask leading questions that will allow them to start to see things outside their own box and allow them to make their own conclusions that both of us find acceptable.

LDM As a man in the technology field you are very much
0110001001101100011000010110001101101011001000000110111101110010001000000111011101101000011010010111010001100101

What I said (word for word) is:

I understand why you are upset. I just reject the notion those kind of reaction to me saying some opinion is invalid are reasonable or mature. I don't know if it comes from pride, a fragile ego, immaturity, being thin skinned, or just a habit or cultural influence or what but if you can't take somebody offering reasonable criticism devoid of name calling or personal attacks then I would say you are the one that needs to change.

There is no accusation there ('I don't know if...) I do list some possible causes, keeping it open to there being ones I haven't listed ('or what') in the hopes of prompting some introspection. It is for the reader to look inside themselves and determine what they react like that.

I did a search of my posts on the word 'stupid' and wasn't able to find one that where I used the word to insult somebody. I did use it saying King David had a 'stupid attack' and things like that, but I never called you or anybody else here stupid as far as I can recall or can find.

And I would disagree that dissecting somebody's comments and pointing out where they are mistaken is the same thing as calling somebody stupid. People can make a choice to take it that way, but when they do that they have to own that choice. You don't have to be stupid to be mistaken, and everybody (including me) is or has been mistaken about something at some point and will be mistaken about something in the future too.

Likewise, it is a choice to look at it as if I'm talking down to you like you are child. That isn't what I'm doing, I'm trying to talk with you all as adults assuming you all have the maturity needed to not freak out if somebody disagrees with them and who will look at the substance of that disagreement rather than take it as an insult that somebody provides a counter argument against what they claimed.

When it comes to starting off a remark with a person's name it isn't clear to me from what you said if you intend that to be taken as calling somebody stupid when you do it, or if it just how your DW takes it. If the first, then it isn't really reasonable to assume that I mean it the same way, I don't. If I do that I'm either trying to get their attention, make sure they know I'm aiming my remark at them, or perhaps that I feel a big frustrated or feel like I'm not being listend too. If somebody translates that in their head as 'hey stupid!' then they are reading into my words something I never said or intended. Who's at fault then? I have no control over how somebody choses to translate my words and read into them things I never said. One person will that one way and another person will do that another way. I would say people shouldn't translate like that at all, just take things as they are said and not project into it what you think they secretly have going on in their head.

I think you have a point when you say I don't say things like 'I understand' enough. I do say them at times (see my quote above) but now that you point it out I can see I have a habit of when I read something, understand it, and disagree with it I tend to jump right to expressing my disagreement. I'll work on that.

Now, to you question (at last eh?). I have had a young man come and confess to me they were masturbating once. I told them I was proud of them for seeking help and loved them and encouraged them to talk with the Bishop about it. All I know about what happened after that is that he was restricted from exercising her priesthood for 2 weeks, and there was no emotional trauma. As far as I know that was the end of it.

I'm not here trying to counsel, I'm here trying to have a discussion, so no, this is not how I would be talking if I was counseling somebody just as I'm sure the other posters are not talking to me the same way they would be if they were counseling or being given counsel by a priesthood leader.

As for being binary about things, on some things yes, where I feel things have been laid out clearly and there isn't legitimate wiggle room for going contrary to it. Not everything is like that, but some things are and I call them as I see them.

I think it would be a terrible thing to go through life never having a sure and solid conviction about anything and always believing that nothing is sure and reliable and unchanging. How can you have the kind of faith needed for salvation if you feel that God is changeable, or that we can never really know for sure if something really is what God commands or says or wants or if his Prophet can be trusted or not.

[BBoy]

If you don't want your posts to get deleted, LatterDay Marriage, keep them short and to the point.

Hrmmm...

[JustGettingBy]

I am not saying I am done, but I have to take a break.

[Bryan_LDS_husband]

I think it would be a terrible thing to go through life never having a sure and solid conviction about anything and always believing that nothing is sure and reliable and unchanging. How can you have the kind of faith needed for salvation if you feel that God is changeable, or that we can never really know for sure if something really is what God commands or says or wants or if his Prophet can be trusted or not.

This is a bit of an aside from the topic of this thread (sorry), but I wanted to comment on this. What I read into this comment, and feel free to correct me, is this: Anytime a prophet speaks from the pulpit or publishes his words via the church, you assume it as if God himself were speaking. Or at least, this is how we aught to consider it, true or not. End of story. The Prophet has spoken. No need to think about it any more. The issue is settled. God's will has been made known.

That to me feels like blind obedience.

Maybe this is a key difference between you and some other people on this forum, myself included. This is not a "trust" issue, as you say. I trust our FP and Q of 12. But I also think that often when they speak, they can't help but share their own personal best interpretation, mingled with inspiration. There are just too many instances of a prophet or apostle saying something "officially" that turns out to be false. Again, this does not weaken my trust or faith in anything or anyone. It's a simple recognition that they are human, and are not God himself. Bottom line for me is this: When I set my course, I use their words as a guide and compass, but the ultimate decision comes down to my own personal conclusions which I try very hard to reach with the Spirit and through prayer.

If I were the type to become easily offended, I might take offense at you telling me that my conclusion is wrong and invalid. The thing is, you really don't know how I came to my conclusion, what thought process I put behind it, or to what extent I involved the Spirit and personal prayer in arriving at my conclusion. So when you tell me (or anyone else) that we are wrong about our conclusions, you have stepped into the role of judge. You assume that you can make decisions for us better than we can.

This is why so many people on this forum have pleaded with you to cloak your responses with "I feel that...", or "My own personal opinion is..." etc.