What were you taught about masturbation?

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Re: What were you taught about masturbation?

Postby Momgyver » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:10 pm

zos wrote:
Momgyver wrote:As far as how we got to where we are today, it is a long story and I've told a lot of it scattered here and there throughout the forum. The bottom line was, that over the years, I became a cold fish. I never refused sex, but it was very, very clear I never wanted it either. Events brought our marriage to the breaking point. DH gave me an ultimatum. Change. Show him some affection. Actually participate in the sex we were having. OR He was going to divorce me. I had to decide. I thought long and hard. I prayed. Ultimately, I chose to give change a try and in the process God changed my heart. Profoundly. Permanently. As part of that change, I will not compromise my sexuality. I give freely and unconditionally, but I am also not afraid to ask for what I need. I will never be that repressed person again, that hid and denied my sexual self. He is so happy that I actually love him again, and am demonstrating that love, that he has been willing to give back to me on so many levels. My change was instantaneous. His has been gradual. He is beginning to trust that my change is permanent.

Gods ways are mysterious and amazing.

Here is one place where I tell part of my story: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1032&start=20#p19040


But you weren't really sexually repressed if you were masturbating, right? Was it that you were feeling guilty about your sexuality during those times? Or was it that you just weren't getting along with your husband and that led to a bad cycle?

Nope. I was repressed. We have been married for well over 40 years and for the first 15 or so years, I was not repressed. We had sex a lot and I masturbated regularly. Over the next 20 or so years, I gradually lost my sexial desire for my husband. It got to the point that I didn't care if I ever had sex. I rarely masturbated either. I've never felt guilty, I simply didn't care. I really thought I would be happy being sexless. I thought I would be happy if DH would simply leave me alone.

Then, suddenly, the switch was flipped, and here I am today with a very high sex drive - and I thank God every day for this gift he has given me.
“Love cannot live where there is no trust.” Edith Hamilton
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Re: What were you taught about masturbation?

Postby BBoy » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:47 pm

be64 wrote:I don't understand why masturbation would be considered selfish just because it something you do by yourself and is enjoyable. There are a lot of things that can be done by yourself which are enjoyable that are not considered selfish. For example eating, having a hot shower, soaking in a hot tub, working out, running, and a lot of other things. I find lifting weights quite enjoyable does that mean if I do it by myself I'm being selfish and cheating on my wife?


Add to your list: studying the scriptures ("I found out he was way ahead of me in the New Testament!"), doing family history ("He hasn't even touched my side of the family!") and spending time with your kids ("They went camping without me!").
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Re: What were you taught about masturbation?

Postby MrShorty » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:42 pm

be64 wrote:I don't understand why masturbation would be considered selfish just because it something you do by yourself and is enjoyable. There are a lot of things that can be done by yourself which are enjoyable that are not considered selfish. For example eating, having a hot shower, soaking in a hot tub, working out, running, and a lot of other things. I find lifting weights quite enjoyable does that mean if I do it by myself I'm being selfish and cheating on my wife?

I think that the majority LDS view is that sex is different from (read "special" or "sacred" if you want) these other activities, and something about that "specialness" means that sex should never be enjoyed solo. This could be illustrated by the recent podcast by Fairmormon (http://blog.fairmormon.org/2015/01/08/r ... turbation/ ). In this statement Br. Densley leans on this "specialness" that makes sex supposed to be a "couples" activity and never a solo activity to support his arguments against masturbation. I personally agree more with you, be64, than Br. Densley. I do not understand why sex is so special that it must be exclusively a partnered activity. I think that the majority of LDS simply accept this specialness (even if they seem unable to explain the root principle behind it), and become offended by suggestions of solo sexual activity.

I guess my conclusion is that, in order to convince LDS that M is not harmful to their relationships (or spirituality), we maybe need to tackle this question of "specialness" of sexuality. Is sex like any other activity that can be shared or done solo? Or is sex different/special/unique in some way that makes it different from other activities? How is it similar and how is it unique?
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Re: What were you taught about masturbation?

Postby be64 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:11 pm

MrShorty wrote:
be64 wrote:I don't understand why masturbation would be considered selfish just because it something you do by yourself and is enjoyable. There are a lot of things that can be done by yourself which are enjoyable that are not considered selfish. For example eating, having a hot shower, soaking in a hot tub, working out, running, and a lot of other things. I find lifting weights quite enjoyable does that mean if I do it by myself I'm being selfish and cheating on my wife?

I think that the majority LDS view is that sex is different from (read "special" or "sacred" if you want) these other activities, and something about that "specialness" means that sex should never be enjoyed solo. This could be illustrated by the recent podcast by Fairmormon (http://blog.fairmormon.org/2015/01/08/r ... turbation/ ). In this statement Br. Densley leans on this "specialness" that makes sex supposed to be a "couples" activity and never a solo activity to support his arguments against masturbation. I personally agree more with you, be64, than Br. Densley. I do not understand why sex is so special that it must be exclusively a partnered activity. I think that the majority of LDS simply accept this specialness (even if they seem unable to explain the root principle behind it), and become offended by suggestions of solo sexual activity.

I guess my conclusion is that, in order to convince LDS that M is not harmful to their relationships (or spirituality), we maybe need to tackle this question of "specialness" of sexuality. Is sex like any other activity that can be shared or done solo? Or is sex different/special/unique in some way that makes it different from other activities? How is it similar and how is it unique?

In my opinion, if masturbation is a sin it is not because it is selfish or self gratifying but it is because of some other reason. I don't buy the selfish reason.
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Re: What were you taught about masturbation?

Postby zos » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:58 pm

Momgyver wrote:Nope. I was repressed. We have been married for well over 40 years and for the first 15 or so years, I was not repressed. We had sex a lot and I masturbated regularly. Over the next 20 or so years, I gradually lost my sexial desire for my husband. It got to the point that I didn't care if I ever had sex. I rarely masturbated either. I've never felt guilty, I simply didn't care. I really thought I would be happy being sexless. I thought I would be happy if DH would simply leave me alone.

Then, suddenly, the switch was flipped, and here I am today with a very high sex drive - and I thank God every day for this gift he has given me.


I see. Fascinating.
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Re: What were you taught about masturbation?

Postby likesnatural » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:04 pm

Momgyver wrote:
zos wrote:Momgyver, did you continue to masturbate without your husband knowing?
I did. I kept it very secret for all those years. It is such a relief to be free from the secrecy. I'm sure DH did it too, but he was ashamed and felt bad, because he had been taught it was wrong. Now he is open and feels free to indulge. I think he still feels some residual guilt, but at least he knows that I think it is perfectly normal. We are now able to discuss anything sexual. ANYTHING! It is great!

I am very happy to see that both of you are free from the guilt and that it has made for better relations between you. It would be great if all marriages were so fortunate. Keep it up.
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Re: What were you taught about masturbation?

Postby BBoy » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:34 pm

likesnatural wrote:I am very happy to see that both of you are free from the guilt and that it has made for better relations between you. It would be great if all marriages were so fortunate. Keep it up.


Amen!
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Re: What were you taught about masturbation?

Postby Coriander » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:11 pm

be64 wrote:In my opinion, if masturbation is a sin it is not because it is selfish or self gratifying but it is because of some other reason. I don't buy the selfish reason.


Contrary to being selfish, you could see it as an act of kindness and respect toward your wife, by not bothering her every time you get the itch. You could see it as a useful strategy to temper teenage sexual desire and help teenagers avoid the risks of having sex with each other. You could see it as a way for people to prepare for marriage by getting familiar with their own sexual response (I'm thinking of the work of Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife).

I think it's the deflecting and tempering aspect that is the biggest threat to traditional Christian sexuality and marriage as the Church inherited them. If people are able to scratch their itch in private, then sexual desire isn't as useful as the carrot on the stick to get men to marry and women to do their wifely duty. Modesty as traditionally understood fits in with this too: it's all part of an archaic social order that keeps sexuality very tightly restricted within marriage and uses social weapons to reinforce that. Unfortunately those social weapons backfire and produce rape culture. But maybe that was a risk worth taking in order to ensure high fertility among populations with higher infant mortality rates and lower life expectancy than we expect in industrialized economies.

I also think that old strategy of enforcing fertility is behind the 1982 interpretation of oral sex as an "impure, or unholy practice." (It certainly is unnatural, but so was the typewriter that the 1982 letter was written on.)

In some religious teachings (not just Abrahamic) M has been seen as sinful because it's a waste of the man's seed, but that was before microscopes helped people discover that most sperm are wasted in the act of conception anyway. There can only be one to fertilize the egg, so if every sperm were sacred, then God's own design is wasteful and destructive of sacred things. (We could, and I do, take that as another archetypal root of the fear and resentment that drives religious misogyny: the egg chooses one sperm and rejects the rest).

My wife and I did a natural family planning course when we were engaged (not the rhythm method, by the way: http://www.creightonmodel.com/), and it f***ed up our sex life - pun intended. My wife remarked how everyone we met who used it seemed to have large families anyway - not because it didn't work, but because people tend to use it as a way to maximize fertility rather than avoid pregnancy. It's a Roman Catholic-influenced program and shows the same Medieval ideology as that 1982 letter: during fertile times, couples wishing to avoid pregnancy are instructed to avoid all genital contact - even "hand-to-genital contact" that doesn't risk fertilization. We abandoned that teaching after our frustration and disappointment grew too great. But I still remember how guilty I felt after our first mutual manual session during one of the fertile times. We had read The Act of Marriage and used manual clitoral stimulation from the beginning to good effect, but for some reason I still felt that even my wife's hand on my penis was sinful. I even was shocked by the book's suggestion that a newlywed couple should "massage" each other to climax on their wedding night. The euphemism didn't fool me: they were telling married couples to masturbate each other! I couldn't believe it. I wish we had followed that bit of advice - anyway it took a while to get over the guilt from receiving "manual stimulation" even though I felt no compunction about giving it. It took me a while to admit how little sense that made. It took less time to say "f*** it" to "no genital contact" and begin my study of applied linguistics.
You may be a master debater, but I am a cunning linguist.
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Re: What were you taught about masturbation?

Postby be64 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:18 am

In the case of me and my wife, we knew that as soon as we were married we could have intercourse, but beyond that we weren't sure what was okay. We were so indoctrinated about not touching etc. that we weren't sure of what we were allowed to do. At first we did not french kiss or fondle breasts ect. We quickly got over that and decided that whatever we both felt good about doing was okay to do. However some of the things I believe to be okay my wife does not therefore we don't do them. As I have written before I have the fantasy of my wife binding me and having her way with me. She thinks that is a rather demented fantasy.

We have used vibrators on each other nearly from the beginning and I see nothing wrong with that despite the fact that I know of people who think the use of vibrators is scandalous.

Although I don't think there is anything wrong with solo masturbation as long as it is not excessive and does not interfere with a couples sex life, I am not yet willing to trust my thinking on this therefore I do not let myself masturbate freely in case I am in fact wrong and it is a sin. I do however think that masturbation could solve a lot of problems when one spouse is not in the mood. I know that some would say that you don't need sex, you should just control your self and stifle your desire, but I view sex in the same way as eating. You can ignore your hunger for a while, but eventually you have to eat. Of course you can deny yourself sex and be miserable, but I don't think that is what was intended. I don't see how not stimulating yourself makes you more pure and holy any more than not eating makes you more pure and holy. Even in the law of the fast we are not expected to go without food for more than a day. Why should anyone be expected to go without sex indefinitely? I think using the toilet is a rather impure act but it has to be done nevertheless.

Only four of my "seeds" have successfully grown while hundreds of millions of them have been "wasted" during intercourse. I don't think wasting the seed is a very valid reason for not masturbating.

Sex was either meant for procreation only or it was meant for that and enjoyment. If it is only for procreation then we are not justified in having sex for any other reason. However if it is also for enjoyment, why would that enjoyment be limited to only those who are fortunate enough to find a willing spouse while others would have to live without any sexual pleasure for their entire lives?
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Re: What were you taught about masturbation?

Postby OkieDokie » Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:42 am

Be64 , you underestimate yourself!
average sperm count is 30, 000,000 / ml.
Average ejaculate is around 5 ml, and maybe 5 ejac/ week on low side

Therefore your "wasted lifetime seed" should have on the order of 2,000,000,000,000
Not hundreds of million but millions of millions.

Unless you have been fertilizing all your neighbors' fields while your wife was otherwise occupied :D

But at least you wasted way less seed than the government has wasted dollars :o imagine that!!

So each ejaculate would be worth $1,500,000 !! At $ /seed

Maybe you should send your wife an invoice for services rendered! :lol:
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