Poll: Pornography Use

A place to post Polls.

Moderators: zookie, Mrs J, mariabronn

Re: Poll: Pornography Use

Postby Jgtrs » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:05 am

rm1971, I expressed a lot of ideas for understanding and overcoming on the thread "Thoughts on Porn and Overcoming Porn Habits". Did you read that?

If you still think I'm trying to justify porn when I'm saying I'm not trying to justify porn, and you're really reading all this stuff, then I don't know what to say. Wonder what you want.

The point of my last few posts in this thread was to also bring a measure of reality and evidence to the discussion. If you don't agree with the other evidence, that's okay. It's not uncommon for people in the church to accept some evidence and ignore some other. I think you are correct in that the evidence you brought up should be considered as well. It's important to understand that research.

Part of your next points of disagreements is simply semantics. A typical LDS man does not sexually abuse his daughter because, obviously, that's not typical. He may seem typical on the outside, but he is not. Perhaps he started typical and porn turned him into an aberrant monster. We can guess that he likely got into more and more deviant behaviors until he eventually abused someone. Like I said before, we know that brain neurology and brain functioning can be altered in adults--what fires together wires together. People can change. Also, we know that there is a great deal of evidence showing that some people are much more susceptible to addictions than others. Similarly, some people are more susceptible to committing a crime than others. Likewise, there are some people who would not rape anyone no matter what they were exposed to or for how long. There are a few people who cannot kill another person, for any reason whatsoever. Yes, most of us could do just about anything given the right circumstance, but not everyone. I would guess that if Thomas Monson were kidnapped and forced to watch violent porn for three straight months, he would still very very likely still never rape anyone. And, MOST LDS people with biologically intact brains are not going to commit any crimes even if they have a porn habit (that does not include voluntarily viewing that "Illegal" kinds of stuff). The evidence is clear that exposure to "acceptable" (in the world sense) porn does not cause MOST people to commit crimes. This is not a "liberal opinion" but a conclusion based on the data. Does that mean I am trying to justify "acceptable" porn? Absolutely not. We know and research supports that there is an addictive potential, that it can be terrible for children, and that it generally alienates and drives people apart. We (most LDS people) also believe that porn is the great illusion to intimacy. Also, we cannot know for sure how any of us will handle this stuff, especially repeated exposure to even what might be considered "soft porn", hence the need to stay away from it. We may be the guy that has a high propensity for addictions. We might be the guy that will go off the edge. Does this look like I am saying "I'm immune because I'm a typical LDS male?"

There are actually several indicators that you might be more prone to addictions, but we can save that for another thread.

Re: "acceptable porn" and "less acceptable porn". Did you not read? "I would not argue that repeated and prolonged exposure to porn can change or rewire a “normal” brain to the point where that individual may eventually act out in a crime. It could happen and probably does happen. But it doesn’t happen with the exposure that we’re typically talking about in this forum. The studies that have shown emotional, value, and moral judgment changes after BRIEF exposure to porn have all used more abhorrent, violent, or “less-acceptable” (in the world sense) types of porn as dependent variables. Such results did not surprise most researchers since we already know that exposure to single traumatic events can have a profound effect on our psyche and behavior (e.g., soldiers at war and post-traumatic stress)." Acceptable or Less-acceptable porn from the WORLD'S point of view. I could also say "legal" and "illegal" by US standards. What I meant specifically is that these studies that showed behavioral and value-judgment differences after BRIEF exposure to porn used porn involving dramatized violent rape. If there are men on here who watch violent porn, then please see my caveat again: "<I should point out, however, that there is a definite demarcation in severity and potential malfeasance with the types of porn that even the most liberal among us deem wrong—the illegal stuff. If you find yourself attracted to, seeking, or viewing illegal things, please understand that you need immediate help and that it is impossible to overcome this on your own.>"

Maybe an analogy would help... understanding that analogies aren't perfect illustrations and you can't take them too far. Lumping the porn that most of the LDS men view together with the porn that most people view before committing violent crimes is like comparing breaking the word of wisdom by drinking a cup of coffee and breaking the word of wisdom by injecting heroin. Are both dangerous? Yes. Are they dangerous at the same level? Duh. Can both become addictions? Sure. Can coffee lead to heroin? Certainly, but not for most people. Can both kill you? yes but at different rates. Is it possible to stop both habits or addictions? Yes, but the harder stuff requires a great deal more help. Will coffee drinkers commit crimes for a fix? I have never heard of that happening. Will heroin commit crimes for a fix? Nearly always.
Jgtrs
 
Posts: 1786
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:12 pm

Re: Poll: Pornography Use

Postby Max » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:45 am

OK, please don't flame me for defending porn. I was quite confused by this myself, but I'm sharing it here to illustrate how diverse expert opinions seem to be on this topic. This study shows that sex crimes actually decrease as the availability of pornography increases, presumably because people who otherwise might commit crimes can redirect their attentions to pornographic material.

Here's a quote from a study by Milton Diamond, Ph.D. of the University of Hawaii John A. Burns School of Medicine:

"The concern that countries allowing pornography and liberal anti-obscenity laws would show increased sex crime rates due to modeling or that children or adolescents in particular would be negatively vulnerable to and receptive to such models or that society would be otherwise adversely effected is not supported by evidence. It is certainly clear from the data reviewed, and the new data and analysis presented, that a massive increase in available pornography in Japan, the United States and elsewhere has been correlated with a dramatic decrease in sexual crimes and most so among youngsters as perpetrators or victims."

You can see the entire paper here: http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/D ... graphy.htm

Of course, the statistics are looking at the deviants and potential deviants, not at the average man. But beyond studies and statistics, we know there are spiritual consequences associated with this indulgence and we need to find better ways of helping ourselves and our loved ones.

Max
Max
 
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:57 pm

Re: Poll: Pornography Use

Postby old.geezer » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:48 am

Max wrote:Of course, the statistics are looking at the deviants and potential deviants, not at the average man. But beyond studies and statistics, we know there are spiritual consequences associated with this indulgence and we need to find better ways of helping ourselves and our loved ones.

Max

Max, you've exactly stated the problem with most studies of porn vs. violence. If the subjects of the studies are those who have committed violent acts, you're discarding the "normal" part of the behavior curve. That was the major problem with Kinsey's studies. For years they were used to describe the "normal range of sexual behavior", despite the fact that the subjects interviewed were prison inmates, prostitutes, and folks who would voluntarily participate in a discussion of taboo sexual behaviors. Not exactly your typical American family! Same problem with the porn vs. violence studies.

Porn should be shunned because it encourages improper thoughts and stunts marital intimacy, both emotional and physical, not because it allegedly promotes violence.
old.geezer
 
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:06 pm

Re: Poll: Pornography Use

Postby Max » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:38 pm

old.geezer wrote:Porn should be shunned because it encourages improper thoughts and stunts marital intimacy, both emotional and physical, not because it allegedly promotes violence.


Bingo! I would just add that it also creates personal internal conflicts that inhibit the emotional and spiritual growth of the individual. My whole thing is that we need to evolve beyond the ol' shame/intimidation mentality in the way we confront the issue. We act like anyone who's ever looked at porn is a crack addict. If you convince someone that they're an addict they're more likely to behave like one.

Max
Max
 
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:57 pm

Re: Poll: Pornography Use

Postby rm1971 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:48 pm

Thanks for such a lively discussion.

Jgtrs wrote:rm1971, I expressed a lot of ideas for understanding and overcoming on the thread "Thoughts on Porn and Overcoming Porn Habits". Did you read that?

Yes, I read it.

The point of my last few posts in this thread was to also bring a measure of reality and evidence to the discussion. If you don't agree with the other evidence, that's okay. It's not uncommon for people in the church to accept some evidence and ignore some other.

Please don't make assumptions about me. I see both view points, but it doesn't mean that I have to agree with either 100%. And it goes both ways...

And, MOST LDS people with biologically intact brains are not going to commit any crimes even if they have a porn habit (that does not include voluntarily viewing that "Illegal" kinds of stuff). The evidence is clear that exposure to "acceptable" (in the world sense) porn does not cause MOST people to commit crimes. This is not a "liberal opinion" but a conclusion based on the data.

Where's the data? I'd be interested in reading the journal article.

There are actually several indicators that you might be more prone to addictions, but we can save that for another thread.

Me? Well, yes of course, I may be more prone to addictions. Who isn't (especially, as you mentioned, those of us in the LDS church)?? But, Finding fault in others is a common thinking error/defense mechanism. You probably know what these are, as it seems like you work in this field/career. And if you have any personal insights for me after reading a few of my posts, then send me a PM.

Re: "acceptable porn" and "less acceptable porn". Did you not read?

Again, yes I read it.

The studies that have shown emotional, value, and moral judgment changes after BRIEF exposure to porn have all used more abhorrent, violent, or “less-acceptable” (in the world sense) types of porn as dependent variables. Such results did not surprise most researchers since we already know that exposure to single traumatic events can have a profound effect on our psyche and behavior (e.g., soldiers at war and post-traumatic stress)." Acceptable or Less-acceptable porn from the WORLD'S point of view. I could also say "legal" and "illegal" by US standards. What I meant specifically is that these studies that showed behavioral and value-judgment differences after BRIEF exposure to porn used porn involving dramatized violent rape.

Again, please share the studies. I am interested in reading them.
rm1971
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:43 am

Re: Poll: Pornography Use

Postby Jgtrs » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:16 am

Sorry, there was a typo on a line in my previous post. I did not mean to imply or suggest that rm1971 was prone to addictions. I meant "you" in the general sense, not specifically. I should have said "There are actually several indicators that ONE might be more prone to addictions, but we can save that for another thread."

Regarding a reference showing changes in behavior and judgment after brief exposure to violent porn: uh... what about the Donnerstein article to you already mentioned, rm1971?
Jgtrs
 
Posts: 1786
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:12 pm

Re: Poll: Pornography Use

Postby rm1971 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:00 pm

Jgtrs wrote:Regarding a reference showing changes in behavior and judgment after brief exposure to violent porn: uh... what about the Donnerstein article to you already mentioned, rm1971?


I thought maybe you had another study you were referring to.
rm1971
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:43 am

Re: Poll: Pornography Use

Postby Jgtrs » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:08 pm

There are other studies, yes. I will list some below so long as you understand I'm not trying to say that porn is a good thing. We can make better decisions and intervene with more success if we know what the research says.

As I mentioned before, Donnerstein's studies looked at immediate short-term effects. Other studies did not show any long-term changes.
From an article in Aggressive Behavior, 12, 129-137. 1986. "Repeated Exposure to Violent and Nonviolent Pornography: Likelihood of Raping Ratings and Laboratory Aggression Against Women", Neil M. Malamuth and Joseph Ceniti. "With respect to exposure effects, the results did not reveal that repeated exposure to violent or nonviolent pornography had any significant effect on laboratory aggression against women. These findings appear to be inconsistent with previous data showing that exposure to violent pornography may increase males' laboratory aggression toward women (e.g., Donnerstein, 1980a,b; 1984; Donnerstein and Berkowitz, 1981; Malamuth, 1978). The most apparent explanation for this discrepancy is that earlier investigations examined immediate effects (i.e., in same session that exposures were presented) whereas the present experiment tested for relatively long-term effects. It may be that exposure to violent pornography might have an immediate impact on aggressive behavior against women but this effect may dissipate quickly over time."

See also Richard Felson's paper overviewing behavioural science research into the effects of pornography on aggression in the Annual Review of Sociology. His quote: "Evidence does not support the hypothesis that exposure to nonviolent pornography leads to violence toward women. Most experimental studies show no difference in aggression toward women between subjects exposed to pornographic films and control groups (for reviews, see Donnerstein 1984, Linz & Malamuth 1993). There is evidence that rapists report less exposure to pornography than controls, not more (see Linz & Malamuth 1993 for a review)."

From "What Scientists Know about Rape and Porn"--Charlene L. Muehlenhard, Ph.D., Department of Psychology, University of Kansas, 1995.
"Most studies show that men who see these violent movies are, on the average, more likely to say that they would commit rape, to minimize the trauma experienced by victims, and to endorse rape myths (e.g., the myth that women enjoy being forced to have sex). Not all men respond this way, however, and attitudes do not necessarily predict behavior. Sexually explicit material that is nonviolent does not have these effects."

Also see just about any of Judith Becker's work. Journal of Sex Education and Therapy contains a lot of good information.

From Pornography, Sex Crime, and Public Policy, Dr Berl Kutchinsky, May 1991
"The aggregate data on rape and other violent or sexual offenses from four countries where pornography, including aggressive varieties, has become widely and easily available during the period we have dealt with would seem to exclude, beyond any reasonable doubt, that this availability has had any detrimental effects in the form of increased sexual violence."

There have also been some interesting studies and legal cases in other countries. Some criminals have tried to claim that "porn made them do it". The data just do not support this claim.
Jgtrs
 
Posts: 1786
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:12 pm

Poll: Survey Update

Postby Mastodon » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:29 am

Last edited by Mastodon on Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:03 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Mastodon
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:40 am

Re: Poll: Pornography Use

Postby Max » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:14 pm

I'd just like to add that it is a private group, so membership information and postings are not visible to the forum at large, only to other registered members of the subgroup. Considering the results to the poll and the amount of discussion, we had expected more members of this forum to join us.. If you're a little bit timid about it, you can always resubscribe to LDSSexuality.com under a new user name and have double anonymity ;)

Max
Max
 
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:57 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Polls

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests